(Kagawa Sensei is the JKS Technical Director). Interview by John Cheetham, translation by Scott Langley.
John Cheetham (JC): Sensei, you stopped competing about 10 years ago, do you miss the excitement and the adrenaline rush?
Masao Kagawa (MK) : No, I don’t miss it at all. I already have
that experience, and because I have that experience, that’s
all I need. Now I have students who have competition success, and
who are becoming strong and I can take great enjoyment in helping
them to become strong and win competitions.
JC: Has your own personal training changed since then? What do you now work on most?
MK: Since finishing competition I now understand what is important
in training in karate. I didn’t understand these things whilst
I was competing. For instance, in a competition you must be strong,
but training to become strong and training in how to use your body,
is different. So, when you’re training for competition your
whole purpose is to score a point, but after you finish competition
you can study how to use your body and how to use basics. This is
very, very important. Of course, they are both separate but both important,
but studying how to use your body, I think is the most important.
And also, how to use different techniques, not like in competition
just using one or two techniques but how to use many different techniques.
Like now, I do many demonstrations at major competitions, I have to
do lots of practice for demonstrations. In these demonstrations I
can really show my karate because I can use lots of techniques and
show how to use your body using all these different techniques. However,
there are many champions of karate who cannot do demonstrations because
they can only use one or two techniques. If you can’t do basics
well, then you can’t do a good demonstration of karate technique.
So that’s why practicing basics and lots of different techniques
is very important. Of course the elements in competition, speed, timing
and distance are also very important, you ‘must’ be able
to do this, and then you can work on your kihon (basics) and various
different techniques, then you can do your karate and a demonstration
successfully.
You can never stand still in karate, you must always try and improve step by step, just like you can’t go straight from beginner to black belt. Everyday you must not ‘just’ train but also, ‘think’ and train at the same time. All the time pushing forward and always trying to move ahead and never stand still.
JC: Do you get the same feeling from doing a demonstration as you did from competition?
MK: The feeling of doing a demonstration and competition are very similar but, the only difference is that in a competition you can get away with making a mistake, maybe you make a mistake but you don’t lose a point and it’s O.K. However, if you make a mistake during a demonstration, then everybody can see it and they understand, so it’s very important. However, in a competition you can control the distance, like you can go in and come back, or if you get a bad feeling then you can go into a safe distance and you can decide what to do. But in performing a demonstration you can’t do this, they are in your face, and you have to do it there and then, there’s no way you can possibly say, ‘let’s do it again’, so it’s very hard. Although they’re different, the feeling you get when performing a demonstration is very similar to the feeling you experience when you are competing.
JC: Sensei, you use your body like a whip, with your hip-snap action – yet on the old JKA movie films from around 1960, the instructors definitely did not use this technique in those days, they only used hip-rotation, so when was this developed and brought in, and by who?
MK: About twenty to twenty five years ago it changed, it was developed by Osaka sensei and Yahara sensei. Of course, Yahara sensei and Osaka sensei wanted to become better, faster, stronger and so they were always experimenting on how to improve technique and so obviously this development was improvement. And so that’s why they changed, they were searching for new ways to do techniques, not new ways, but better ways. So when I trained with Osaka sensei and Yahara sensei when I was on the JKA instructors course, I knew this way was the best way for me personally at this time.
Because I had the chance to train with these people and learn from their experimental training, I was able to improve greatly. I looked at Yahara sensei’s and Osaka sensei’s style and I learned from them and developed my own style from it – because they wouldn’t teach this to juniors because it was their own secret technique. They kept it a secret to themselves, but my thinking was to watch and look at them and learn from how they moved. Then practice myself and develop my own style, but remember there is also shoulder-snap and elbow-snap, this is very important, not just hip-snap. I now want to teach my ideas on all this in an easily understandable way, and teach the students step by step, and hopefully they will be able to improve.
JC: Sensei, you showed on the course that there are different types of kime, one using muscular contraction on impact and one with no contraction, can you explain this please?
MK: The idea of contracting all the body muscles on impact was developed by Nakayama sensei. But there are different methods for kime. For instance, there are two styles of uraken uchi (back-fist strike). One where you snap very fast with power and speed and you are controlling the kime and your distance, the kime (contraction) is very, very quick and then the elbow snaps back. But with the other style of uraken, it’s more like a cutting action with no snap and no muscle contraction – this is called Furi uchi – and here the distance is most important. Also, like I taught on the course, you can do this (furi uchi-cutting strike) with the tips of your fingers – but only using the top two millimetres of the fingers.
(This looks like a straight arm haito uchi brought from way back behind your body that does not stop, using a full hip and full body rotation – it just cuts through the target. This would be aimed at the eyes or throat but obviously it’s too dangerous so we practiced this unusual technique on the course with a partner, aiming at their gi top – just above their belt, as a target. ED). Or with a kick using the tips of your toes in a cutting action – this technique is called furi geri. (This looks a bit like a straight leg crescent kick which doesn’t stop or snap inwards; we also practiced this in exactly the same way as with the fingers, using our partner’s gi top as a target. ED).
JC: You say that students don’t use their back muscles in the basic punches (choku zuki, gyaku zuki, oie zuki, etc). Why is this Sensei?
MK: Most people only think of their arm because that’s all they can see. They don’t use their shoulders correctly, the shoulder must extend fully to bring the back muscles into play. Students over-compensate with their chest muscles because they don’t understand the action. (On the course sensei used the analogy of someone holding a basketball close to their chest with both hands. Now to throw it directly forward with as much force and power as possible, you would completely extend your shoulders in a natural action and this brings the strong back muscles into play. But for some reason students don’t make this action and shoulder extension on their punch. ED).
JC: On your video you squeeze your inner thigh muscles in zenkutsu dachi when you do gyaku zuki and oie zuki, is this the same ‘feeling’ as in Hangetsu and Sanchin kata?
MK: Yes, it’s the same feeling, but this is the same feeling for all stances, not just zenkutsu dachi. You use all the leg muscles, inner and outer thigh muscles in all stances. But the leg muscles are only contracted for a split second (stance contraction) for impact of the technique, then they are immediately relaxed – contraction/expansion. The reason students move slowly is because they contract their leg muscles when they make a stance and don’t relax them before the next movement. It’s the same as with upper-body techniques, students hold the tension for too long and also this stops the breath, the breath never stops. Muscle contraction is for just a split second like with snapping uraken.
JC: Many people criticise Shotokan, saying we only practice from a long distance. What are your views on this?
MK: Well, if you practice this full length technique then this is
the best position. By making big techniques and big movements you
become strong, then once you get to closer distance it’s easier,
then you’ve developed speed and strength from long range training.
Also, if you are at a close distance, the other person can hit you,
so our idea is to move into range, hit, then move out. In Goju-ryu
which is a close range style, they separate kihon from competition
but when in competition they fight from long range like Shotokan,
they have been doing this for forty years which does seem strange.
The former WUKO European champion was from Goju-ryu but he fought
like a Shotokan stylist. I think people who criticise us, don’t
really understand Shotokan.
When Funakoshi sensei was a teacher in Okinawa he developed this big
technique idea to make the students strong. Funakoshi sensei developed
this long distance training for two reasons; one because he wanted
to get away from the image of street-fighting. He didn’t want
to be associated with that image. Secondly he thought this was the
best way to make the body fast and strong. This was the physical training
system he developed for schools.
JC: Sensei you are also the coach for the JKF (Japan Karate Federation) so what do you think of the new WKF rules in kumite, scoring ippon, nihon and sanbon? Would you like to have competed using these types of rules?
MK: Myself and Mr Yamamoto (the former JKA Kumite Champion) are the coaches for the JKF. I think that through these rules karate is moving away from Budo, to out and out sports karate. I do Budo karate, so I’m having trouble with teaching this, and not only teaching it but also doing it, because it goes against Budo. Karate is ‘ippon’ – dead! You can’t be killed and then be reincarnated. I would not have liked to compete using these rules, not at all, I don’t like it. There are problems in Japan over these rules because many people don’t like them and won’t accept them. It’s also very hard for the fighters because they’re not really sure what to do
JC: What do you think about this debate regarding keeping the back heel flat in Shotokan technique?
MK: Keeping the back heel flat in kihon, kata and for makiwara training is to develop the correct ‘feeling’. Once you have that feeling you can do whatever you like. Doing gyaku zuki with the back heel up, as in competition, is fine, once you understand and can capture the right feeling. You can make better penetration this way. But you would never teach this to a beginner because they have not developed the correct feeling. The older masters never did competition, or if they did it was very static, they didn’t move around like nowadays, so they always taught with the back heel flat.
For real fighting or competition you have to be up on the ball of the foot, it’s natural and you can’t keep the back heel flat. The reason we continually practice with the heel flat in kihon, kata and makiwara is to keep developing the feeling of total body power, making it stronger and stronger, then you can use this feeling any way you wish. You can make the same power both ways, with either the back heel up or flat, once you have captured the correct ‘feeling’.
